Joe Quattrone 00:04
There’s a movement brewing, that movement is the me total lifestyle.

Kary Youman 00:08
It centers around you keeping your sense of self intact, and then gaining clarity of purpose as you age. I’m Carrie.

Joe Quattrone 00:15
I’m Joe, I’m JM and we’re on a mission to show you how to enjoy friends, fellowship and life without substance dependence.

Kary Youman 00:22
It’s time to discover how you can begin living a knee total lifestyle. Right

JM Guthrie 00:27
here on the fuzzy ish podcast. Let’s go.

Kary Youman 00:33
Alright, fuzzy ish. Nation, we just finished a pretty cool interview with Dr. Eddie O’Connor, sports psychologist, JM, Joe, what are some of the things our listeners can look out for with this episode?

JM Guthrie 00:47
Yeah, I mean, for me, just the alignment of what he talked about in in just how crystal clearly it resonated specific to what we talked about with me total, particularly around the fact that like, there’s no real way to get to that place except for in his example, removing the emotion and staying focused on the purpose. Those are all things that we can, I’m going to put into action myself coming out of this conversation today, but also continue to re emphasize from the various positions and perspectives that we are on the show and in other places as a way to really achieve this me total life that we’re so dead set on helping people to find.

Joe Quattrone 01:31
Yeah, like Dr. Eddie said, some really interesting things in this episode, things that I don’t know whether I don’t, you know, necessarily 100% aligned with everything. But I find it interesting nonetheless. Like, you guys know me, I’m the eternal optimist, that everything that comes in one ear and out the other, it’s usually filtered by some sort of like, how do I make this a positive thing? So the aspect and idea of, you know, not forcing yourself into the positive, you know, whether or not I believe it or not, it would be really hard for me to change who I am and never commit, maybe I do. I don’t know, I’m open minded to that. And, you know, so I mean, I think it’s just kind of like that he has a lot of tips and tricks of the trade when he’s helping these world class athletes, Olympians, Junior Olympians, really get it like, you know, sleep. Everybody in the world does, you need any more sleep, I get like four hours a night, I’m a data for kids, and I’ve got a pretty, you know, high functioning job, multiple different jobs as a consultant, it’s really hard for me to figure out how to get eight or nine hours of sleep, not that I shouldn’t do it, I should probably figure out how to do it, I’m willing to try to go there. But it’s really hard for me to look at some of the stuff he does and understand how it applies to my life. But nonetheless, I totally see how his world of sports psychology would work for some of these people that are, you know, you know, a quarterback or a swimmer or something like that. And he does show us how he maps some of those tools towards everyday life. One of the things I loved he talked about was, you know, just goal setting and using vision and planning for your everyday life, and how he maps it to like, hey, like everything in life, everyone in life is performing at life. So take it for what you will like whether or not you want to agree with that or not, you’re still putting on a performative experience for who you express yourself to the outside world. So these sports psychology trips, do the tricks do actually apply to us in an everyday setting.

Kary Youman 03:26
Yeah, I think you guys covered it all. I’ll just tell our listeners, this is definitely one worth checking out, as Joe mentioned, just some of his thoughts around positivity and sleep science. I think just those two, two things alone are totally worth a listen. So yeah, tuning into this episode is worth it. And we look forward to connecting with you guys on the other side. Hello, and welcome to the fuzzy ish podcast. I’m your host Carrie joined by my co host, Jay M. And Joe. How are you doing? Happy New Year.

JM Guthrie 03:56
Yeah. Happy New Year to you. Good to see you. Hey. All

Kary Youman 04:00
right. So our guest today, Dr. Eddie O’Connor is a true advocate for intentional living. His tagline overcoming obstacles to excellence formed the foundation for his work and philosophy around peak performance and sports psychology. Not only is he a renowned professional speaker, and clinical sports psychologist, but he’s also reshaping the landscape of peak performance. His rich and varied experiences bring a unique perspective to sports psychology, and the mean total lifestyle which we talk a lot about here on the fuzziest podcast. So I’m Dr. Eddie, Happy New Year and a warm welcome to the fuzzy ish podcast. How are you?

Eddie O’Connor 04:39
Hey, man, I’m doing great. Thanks very much for having me. I’m excited to get started with you.

Kary Youman 04:43
Yeah, we’re glad you’re here. We are glad you’re here. So just to dive right in Dr. Edie? Can you just briefly share your professional journey and just sort of what drew you to specialize in clinical and sports psychology? I was doing a little bit of research and on your website you mentioned you know, kind of this pivotal moment Uh, you know, during your youth, you were running track and just trying to break two minutes and 10 seconds in the 800. And I was a track athlete. I understand that once that kind of move and difference but and that’s moving to it is, yeah, it’s a moment.

Joe Quattrone 05:13
Yeah. Oh, that’s an exaggeration. I

Kary Youman 05:16
I guess it depends on who you’re talking to. But yeah. Could you elaborate just a little bit more on that experience and how it’s influenced your career path?

Eddie O’Connor 05:23
Yeah, absolutely. So, going even earlier than that, like, I always loved psychology, I remember being a kid and reading man’s Freud analysis of dreams for fun, like, so I was kind of nerding out early on. I always wanted to do that. Went to college. And we’ll actually use what happened with me personally, I was a runner. And it was very much an athletic identity, like I was all about running. But again, as I said, it was like I never really won, it was sort of the best of the worst, the worst of the best, like, right middle of the pack. But my athletic identity as a runner, like I ran cross country, indoor outdoor, ran all summer for years. That’s who I was. And so when I was running, trying to break to 10, like you said, those magic numbers, I kept running to 11 to 11 to 11, junior year, senior year. And what I had to analyze later on, everyone’s in graduate school. But what happened was, as I was coming across the finish line, it wasn’t tired, first of all, so I’d run it to 11 wasn’t tired, and then I’d go up onto the bleachers and throw up as if I was exhausted. And you’ve had those workouts, right. And I’ve had a couple of those. But I was like, what, what’s going on? I thought I was weird, but I couldn’t do anything about it. Well, it turns out that I will analyze later on that. And a lot of my athletes have this issue too, the idea of not achieving my goal. Had me subconsciously not run as hard as I could, because then I had kept hope alive. What I mean is, every time he came across, I had a reasonable excuse for failing. I didn’t really fail, I could have done it. I’ll just do it next time. And it was this psychological, again, completely unconscious, and completely not helpful. But Emotionally, it prevented me from ultimately settling into the idea that I wasn’t going to hit my goal. Now the problem with that, of course, is that it prevented me from hitting the goal, although the last race around 209 I think the article got that too. But I’m wondering, What could I have done 205 could have broken two minutes, give him a training? I’m wondering if I probably could have. But it was this mental block that got me fascinated about why I did that? I didn’t even know that I was doing it. Like how powerful are these thoughts? So I went to college for psychology. And I always just loved that idea that I knew I wanted to be a psychologist. And then it was the last class I took. That was called sports psychology. And I never heard of it. And like, what is this, this sounds fascinating. And I immediately fell in love with it, this is what I want to do. Because I had no idea that there was a psychology beyond pathology. Like I knew I wanted to help people, whether they’re depressed or anxious, or sexual abuse or this or that I was really kind of unclear as to where I wanted to specialize. But then once I saw this class, I realized that your thoughts and feelings affect the way that you perform. I immediately said, Well, this is what I want to do. So when I got my PhD in Clinical Psychology, I specialized in what athletes suffer from the most. So I’ve got the most experience in injury and rehabilitation, performance, anxiety, impostor syndrome, perfectionism, I really specialize in that. And I work with athletes across the spectrum that if they’re not doing well, in their slump, I can take them from that, quote, unquote, pathology or that difficulty that they’re having and bring it back to normal. But then even for the athlete that’s doing normal and is fine, but wants to be excellent. Now, I’ve also got the training and the experience to help them take it to the next level because champions if you want to be in the top 1% You can’t do it 99% of the other people are doing you have to be abnormal. And there’s a science to that. So I mean, it’s back and forth. performance

Joe Quattrone 08:38
anxiety, that word is tripping me up. It’s such an interesting word. And, you know, all of us are sports fans. To some extent. I saw that you’re a Buffalo Bills fan, or at least it’s all Buffalo Bills helmets on your backdrop. What’s going on with Josh Allen? Are they going to pull it together one of these days from a performance anxiety perspective and bring home a chip to Buffalo?

Eddie O’Connor 08:58
Yeah, like I’ve gotten into my car and yelled at Instagram a few times and St. John’s called me like what’s going on? Like, the last one that I had done actually, I remember I think was against Denver. And I was like, please call me because there is a reason that you’re throwing these interceptions. There is something feeling or thought that shows up that you’re not paying attention to and you’re just impulsively going back to old old patterns. Now I can analyze them from a distance you know, I don’t know I have full belief that we’re going to win the Super Bowl this year although I say that every year but I really don’t think there isn’t necessarily anything wrong like I mean Josh really does a fantastic job again looking from the outside and I honestly say I see how much luck is really involved with the NFL and these other sports like one call goes a different way or if you’re it’s it’s so hard to demand that perfection so as fans I’m becoming more sensitive to be less critical of what I see on TV and understand what’s going through is not always problematic. Gosh, how do I put it? It’s like again without knowing it. I’m like staring at my Buffalo Bills. I hear right now, it’s so hard to get out of my fandom. I’m gonna put it this way, like, I believe that they can do it. And I believe they will. But I think that everything has to go. Right No matter who wins it. I think that if they play any of these games over and over again, they’ll win some, they’ll lose some. And that’s what makes sports so great. I haven’t seen I’ll say this in their defense, I haven’t seen them being out of their heads or out of their minds. I’ll go back to when we lost the four Super Bowls. That’s what I really wondered. Like when we’re going against the Dallas Cowboys back in the early 90s, which I totally think those Bills teams could have beaten them. I was wondering how much the haunting of the two previous Super Bowl failures maybe interfered with their thinking again, I don’t know if it did or didn’t. But I know that for most of my athletes, those are things that would pop up and distract them. Interesting.

Joe Quattrone 10:43
Well, we started. We did one of those to you and jam. I’m not sure about Carrie, but me and JM are lifelong Washington football team, which is kind of depressing in today’s day and age. But yeah, we were in the suburbs of DC. So we watched Mark rip and I think it was to take us to those guys.

Eddie O’Connor 11:01
Yeah. And I will say that was the one of the four Super Bowl losses. That was the one that I was like, I really did think Washington was maybe the better team that year. That was outstanding , the hogs like it was a great team.

Joe Quattrone 11:12
It was such a tough one going. I’ve watched the recap of that season over so many times like we were the unsexy choice and Buffalo had all the glitz and glamor Thurman Thomas, you had Bruce Smith, you got Jim Kelly, like I thought they were gonna win. I was very nervous. I was 12. But I was very nervous going into that Super Bowl. But man, but good memories back then, when we were actually decent. I think the thing that you said about the referees,

JM Guthrie 11:37
though, it is so important, especially in that game. One, one flag going one way, especially when it’s somebody’s decision is a big part of how those games won and lost. So well. Yeah, I

Eddie O’Connor 11:47
I live in Grand Rapids now. So you know, the big talk about the lions right now. That’s crazy, you know, reporting that they could be the number one seed depending how this weekend goes. But that’s where we say we will remember these teams and their legacies completely differently as a result of these calls.

Kary Youman 12:05
Yeah, so Dr. Eddie gist. I’m a 40 Niners fan, I kind of watched football from the sidelines. But I appreciate you knowing what you guys are saying about the Buffalo Bills, to just double click on this concept of peak performance. I think a lot of people may think it’s one thing others think it’s another but I feel like positive thinking sort of gets put into peak performance. If you’re trying to get out of your comfort zone, you have to kind of wheel yourself, you have to think yourself positively into it. And it sounds like you have kind of a different perspective on that. Could you talk a little bit about just sorting your thoughts on positive thinking? Is it helpful? Is it a placebo? Would you mind just diving into that a little bit more? Thanks,

Eddie O’Connor 12:41
Carrie, I would love to because I’m gonna go counter to what everybody else has heard. I will start off by saying like, I’ve pushed against positive thinking too much. And I think I’ve done it a disservice. So I want to clarify that I’m not against positive thinking. And I do believe in it when it works. And that’s really the critical question. And I think, as we talk today, we’re gonna talk a lot about this magical question of doing what works more so than doing what’s right or wrong, positive or negative. And what I mean by that is, if you can really tap into a thought that’s more positive, more optimistic, and it fuels your motivation. Why wouldn’t you do it? Of course you would. And when we have those thoughts, we tend to do our best. And it’s easier, and we’re motivated. So I’m not against it. But I’m a career here of athletes and other high performers, musicians, businessmen and women who come in. And they’re like, I can’t be positive right now. Like, how are we supposed to be positive in the middle of a career ending injury? How are we supposed to be positive? When is the fourth quarter we’re down by three touchdowns? And we still want to perform our best? How are we supposed to, you know, be positive, when we’ve just made this traumatic mistake that’s affected our families, we really are supposed to just look at the positive side of it. That doesn’t even feel realistic, let alone feel right to do. The reality is, there’s negativity in our world all over the place. There’s real adversity, real challenges, real consequences. And if we’re expecting to be positive in these situations, we’re going to have such conflict inside of ourselves fighting what actually is, from trying to be happy when I’m sad. I don’t have the time. The attentional ability to be able actually focus on the game if I’m fighting my emotions, you can’t do two things at once. So what I teach my clients is this idea of how do you learn to make peace with all of these negative emotions? Guys, let me ask you real quick, we have four basic human emotions. Can you guess what they are?

Joe Quattrone 14:35
Happiness, sadness, fear. Thinking critical Hulk,

Kary Youman 14:42
anger, anger, happy, sad, mad and scared. How many of those are positive? One on one.

Eddie O’Connor 14:51
So let’s pause there everybody who’s listening? Am I a sports psychologist supposed to tell my athletes to perform in 25% of the emotion tons of what it means to be human. Like, we are always supposed to be positive when you’re in a sport, and somebody’s gonna lose, and somebody’s trying to kill you, and your mistakes you’re gonna make, you’re just supposed to operate. In this one thing of happiness, we’ve got quite a few talks about culture earlier, and the things that, you know, are distorting things for us. Like, we’ve got this, like the pursuit of happiness, everybody deserves to be happy and, and like, this is the goal. Happiness really should just be sort of a side effect of the meaningful stuff that you’re doing. Anger has a purpose. Like there’s plenty of things for us to be angry about in our society. You’re supposed to not be pissed off about all the craziness and all the horrible things that are going on. Of course not. When people are anxious, what do we always tell them? Oh, you’re relaxed and everything will be okay. But we know things aren’t always okay. Like, are we supposed to believe that? And when I’m sad, you know, everybody comes up, they don’t like to see me sad. They come in, they try to cheer me up. But like, I’ll never forget, when my parents died, my uncle came up and hugged me, and I was crying. And he’s like, oh, you know, don’t cry, they’re in a better place. Because they’re supposed to make me feel better. I’m like crying for them. Like fact, I believe that they were like Kitt, we have a tolerance and a respect for there’s a time for grief. So I’m very much against this idea when we over push the positive thinking. And because I get just this is not realistic. My champions, what we do is we’re able to settle in and say, Let’s respect what you’re feeling. On a performance anxiety going back there, Joey, like, when I have athletes that come in with performance anxiety, my first session is justifying why they should be anxious, you aren’t going to disappoint your teammates, if you mess up, failures do cost you the game, that mistake is going to be a problem, your coach is going to be pissed off, am I supposed to tell you to worry about it, I think you should worry about it. Now let’s be focused on the reality of their situation, and focus on what you need to do in order to prevent that from happening. How do we respect these negative emotions, embrace them for what they are, but then respond to them in a way that enhances our performance? So Carrie, thank you for that introduction. That is like the foundation of everything

Kary Youman 17:00
I do. I’ve heard about Eddie, thank you.

Joe Quattrone 17:03
I’ve heard a couple of things in that, that make me think about some of the other stuff that I’ve been, you know, researching over the past six months, like, namely, like I would assume anxious is a subset of fear, right. And then one thing that I’ve also seen both written in psychological journals, but also written in scriptures is that there’s no room in your brain to comprehend both anxiety and gratitude at the same time. So is that is there any merit to that from us, like, from a sports psychologist standpoint, like, is a tool of the trade to push out some of this negative thinking or, you know, this fearful thinking this anxious thinking is to it when you’re ready when you’re when you’ve dealt with it, and you’re ready to put it in the past is, is pushing gratitude and and even maybe even being thankful for the lessons you’re learning? It doesn’t have to be overly positive, but being thankful for even being alive? Like, is that a way to kind of grapple with some of these things?

Eddie O’Connor 17:58
Yeah, and I like the way that you’d phrased it, because you it’s really more of a paradigm shift. Like, I like to say that there’s room for all of this. How you interact with it is really the choice. So rather than having right and wrong thinking, things that you should do and stuff that you want to push out? Look, we don’t control what pops into our head, about 50% of our thoughts are automatic. I mean, just think about it. Like if we were all going to be dialed in you and you and I, all four of us, we would only be thinking about what each other were saying. But many things have popped in. I know I got thirsty. So I started to think about the water. Yeah, we’re gonna drink. You might think about the next question. You know, there might be a sound like our heads, we have to respect that they wander. We also have a brain that the survival mechanism of our brain is to actually look out into the world and look for danger. So turtles, like I have this little prop here. They use this with my clients, my son made this many years ago. But when you scare a turtle, it goes into his shell. When you scare a porcupine, its quills are going to come up. And when you kick a skunk it’s going to spray you. It’s got a survival instinct. And what we have as human beings is a brain that looks out to see what could go wrong is an opportunity to protect us. So there’s your negative thinking, and the more you care about something, the more you’re going to worry about it. So no, I absolutely don’t answer your question, Joey, I don’t tell people to push out anxiety. Because if you’re going to push it out, you’re going to try not to worry about it. It’s gonna make you more anxious because your brain is like you’re not following your survival instincts. You’re not paying attention to the threat, which is actually putting you at a greater risk. So I have people lean into whatever the thoughts are, and then look at them from a functioning standpoint, hey, why can I understand why my head might be thinking this? And then is it working or isn’t it? So there were times if a student, for example, is worried about, you know, not doing well on a test and I said this to all my kids as they were growing up? I’m like, Well, have you studied? Do you know it all? No, I’m like, well, then you should be anxious. I’m not going to defend your anxiety, go downstairs and study. And they didn’t like that response because they didn’t like how they felt. But I’m like you, you shouldn’t feel uncomfortable. I am not going to treat your anxiety now. Again, I’m not saying this as if you have panic disorders or obsessive compulsive disorder, I don’t mean to branch out into the extremes. But let’s talk about the everyday experience of it. So this idea of gratitude. We do know that when we adopt gratitude, it works for us. I don’t know anybody that’s ever adopted gratitude as a focus or an intentional practice, that didn’t benefit. So I don’t want to say that it’s the right thing to do, or that you have to, but if it ends up being functioning now, if you choose gratitude in a place where, well, I don’t know if gratitude is a good example, let me say this, if I was negative and positive thinking, I was in the gym a couple of weeks ago, and I was just beat myself up, call myself names tell him that, you know, your curse on here, but it was pretty colorful. And so he goes on to me, they’re like, well, sports psychologists or whatever, and all the positive thinking and like, you know, this is like, Would you want somebody coach yelling at you? Or would you want a coach yelling at your son like, like, this is like, well, first of all, I’m seeing all this stuff with loving kindness. Like, I’m beating myself up with a kind heart, but I’m like, I’m seeing it because I know I got more, and I’m jacking myself up, then I hit a PR, like it worked. So being negative, calling myself names. People say, Oh, that’s bad. You shouldn’t do it. It worked. Therefore, we could do it. And we see it in the other direction. If I’m in there, and I’m like, I’m the greatest guy ever. I’m doing really well. I’m awesome. And it’s taking the edge off. And my performance is suffering. Because I’m not really see this in sports all the time, how there’s an upset win, because people are overconfident? Well, all the positive thinking doesn’t work. You shouldn’t do it. long winded. Sorry for the rattle. But I hope you’re tracking here. The idea is Joey, I really don’t want your listeners to think that there’s a certain way they have to think and force. Yeah, I want you to step back and say when I think these thoughts, is it moving me towards or away from where I want to go? That is so much more important. So much more important than whether it’s true or not. What’s so a quick

Joe Quattrone 21:50
follow up real quick as he just unlocked something in my brain and then I’ll pass the mic over. But I mean, I love what you’re talking about right now with a prs. And I know JM can empathize with that as well. He’s sending me his PRs and his peloton like every other day. But when you said, getting you closer or farther away from what you’re, that’s one of the biggest mantras that I’ve got in my life. Usually, when I talk to anybody, it’s ” what are you planning for? Right? What are your long term, intermediate and short term goals? And if you plan far out enough, and you’re specific and big enough with your goal setting, it makes it a lot easier in the short term to determine whether or not your daily decisions get you closer or farther away from your goals. So how much does like from a psychologist perspective, when you’re dealing with high performing athletes, or executives and stuff like that? How is setting that vision for your career? How much does that matter? What’s gonna go on in your daily life?

Eddie O’Connor 22:45
Yeah, it’s absolutely foundational. So in my success stories, community, this is something that we do is sort of a foundational practice. And I would even go beyond not only just the high achievers, but I would say if you’re going to live just your best life, even if you’re just an average Joe, you have to kind of know what that’s going to look like. And it might be from a goal setting standpoint, what are the things that I want to accomplish, but sometimes it’s even a matter of like, Who do I want to be, what’s my character, do I want to live a life of honesty or of hard work, or of, of grace and compassion. And so with my athletes, when they come in, I usually try to help to kind of uncover, and sometimes people don’t know it, they can’t label it. But once you kind of have a clear direction of the kind of character in life that you want to live, then you have a way to kind of reference and say, well, is every behavior it’s either going to move me towards or away from it, and start to force you into anything, because ultimately, if you at least can identify who it is that you want to be at your core, now that becomes your choice. And so your motivation comes out of it. If you’re taking this because you should or because some doctor told you to do it, you’re doing it for your parents, that stuff doesn’t last. But when you can uncover and say who it is that I want to be, what’s the kind of life that I want to live? What kind of impact do I want to make? That is by far the greatest motivator. And when adversity shows up, you have to have a clearer picture of it. Because that’s going to be the fuel that gets you through. And then you get to hold each behavior up to it and say, it’s either towards or away. Nothing is neutral.

JM Guthrie 24:09
Yeah, it’s interesting. I subscribe, don’t do a lot of that, especially the things about purpose. You know, I think people talk about wealth and success and health and impact and all those things. But at the end of the day, finding our own identity is what I think drives most of us and all the things that you talked about, I certainly can speak about that for myself. So that’s really interesting, the way that you frame that and I’m, I’m interested. This is a theme we’ve been talking about a bunch on the show specific to what really motivates somebody to show up the next day to continue to work towards whatever purpose or identity or objective they have specific to personal and professional aspects of their life. And it sounds like you have a great story and a great model, but there are lots of great stories and great models, there’s lots of different ways to think about it. Are you a subscriber of finding the right model and trying to stick to it to sort of drive yourself or is, is being able to sort of put your tentacles out and feel the movement from each of these different types of directions, both products and practices to some degree, to find that willpower on a daily basis for up for ourselves and kind of centering back to our meat total concept? What would you say to somebody that sort of just having a hard time finding the path to shine up every day towards that, that will to win? Yeah,

Eddie O’Connor 25:40
great question. No, what the what the research has been showing very recently, and I just presented at our sports a conference, how this got a really positive response to it is that we’ve, if you start to look at sort of what’s the right thing to do, we started discovered there’s been something wrong, you know, I’m gonna geek out for you here in a moment. But there’s been something wrong with all the research that we’ve been doing. Because as you take, you know, 1000 people and you get the average, you say, Okay, here’s the answer. No, one person is that average person. So we’ve got these protocols, like one example a colleague of mine shared is that you don’t think that self compassion is something that should be good, right? There’s been lots of publications on and you’ll be kind to yourself, it can really help with performance as well as depression, anxiety. Absolutely. Well, the research shows it works for about three out of five people. So okay, good, it works for most. So, should we do that for everybody? Well, if it works for three out of five people, what about that fourth person? Well, it just, it doesn’t really have an impact. It’s kind of neutral. And then what about the fifth person? Well, it actually hurts one out of five. And that, you know, what’s the reason for that? Well, but maybe they had a history where you’re talking about being kind and maybe that triggers some type of childhood abuse memory, or, you know, there’s some association, but there’s something that it for whatever reason, it’s not working. So we were supposed to go in and just meet people and say, here’s the path, everybody, let’s teach everybody 100%, you should be doing self compassion exercises? Absolutely not. That’s irresponsible. So when I have clients come in and see the individual first, we have a literature about what tends to work, the same thing like with whether it be exercise or nutrition, I’m finding, it’s like, we don’t have any one plan for everybody. And we like it psychologically, it’d be a hell of a lot easier if we could just find out what’s the plan? Tell me and I’ll do it. Hmm. But you’re an individual. You have your own history, your own thoughts, your own values, your own feelings, and nobody else has been created like you before. So, so hold on to everything lately and take it but if you’re struggling, I ask that you embrace that struggle and respect that you’re an individual, that maybe you’re trying to force some things that everybody worked for everybody else, but maybe it shouldn’t work for you. The second big question is, if you’re struggling, is to really lean into it. And rather than jump to like I’m broken, there’s something wrong with me, I’m lacking motivation. And this is problematic. What I have found is that we’re all motivated to do something that helps us, like, even take alcohol, right? Like most people who are drinking, even if their life is falling apart, they’re getting something out of it in the short term, often self medication, for example, it helps me in the moment. Now we’re not saying that that’s, of course, the right way to do it. But to kind of go in and just say that it’s just bad. And that’s it. And you need to respect that it’s bad, never has gotten anybody to quit or to be more temperate, right? We have to lean in and acknowledge that when I’m drunk, I don’t feel anything. And that works for those two hours. And then we step back and say, Okay, now can you get outside of yourself and look at the longer perspective, what happens after that, well, then I feel guilty, and I’m absent for my kids and for my wife, and it’s costing me too much money. And you know, you have all these other consequences not to force you to feel any different, because you’re still going to want to maybe lean in and do that thing. That’s not good for us, whatever it is. But if you can kind of come back and start to look at how it’s working overall. And when I have the urges to maybe drink or do that thing, or eat that food, when I want to be on a diet, whatever it is that that’s not working, I can’t figure it out, can we jump back and kind of look at the conflict, and this is where the values come back in. Because ultimately, if I can really hold on to who I want to be, then I can be willing to feel those unpleasant feelings in service of becoming that. And that’s when we become successful.

JM Guthrie 29:20
Carrie and I were talking about this in between a couple of other calls this morning, and finding the will to show up for the person that we want to be is so important for all of this right and the reality is to your point, it’s not some specific described solution, and we say all the time on this show, there’s not a one in zero answer for any type of consumption or any type of mental wellness. The story is different for all of us. Our mandate on this show is to help people to navigate a path to a place where they can understand that they have the support to find the better path that ultimately drives them towards that will to continue towards the identity and the purpose that you mentioned. So I mean, can we sign this guy up? Is the doctor of me total? Because I mean a lot of his. Yeah, exactly. I mean, a lot of what he’s talking about is the center of how we think about it as much less educated and certainly less practiced experts in this space. So just fascinating. Yeah,

Joe Quattrone 30:27
I love it when we talked about the show once, once upon a time, 10 episodes ago, or something like that, where 7% of the population actually gets energy from drinking alcohol and hardly gets drunk at all. They can drink like 10 drinks and not get drunk and actually have more energy. So seven percent, not a percentage of the population to sneeze at. It’s a decent amount of people out there, it’s not representative of the average, certainly, but I think that map’s back quite nicely to what you’re saying, like 60%. You know, 20%, there’s no effect. And, and, and what, another 20%, it’s a supremely negative effect, the same could probably be applied to alcohol consumption, you know, for most people, it’s probably a net negative. For some people, it’s neutral. And then for a tiny fraction of people that’s actually good, or it can be perceived as, you know, a better outcome than most people.

Eddie O’Connor 31:19
Yeah, you know, what, I’m glad that we’ve got the synergy going on. So yeah, it gives you academic endorsement of everything you’re saying, and all the listeners listen to these guys. Because if, you know, this is brilliant stuff. And you’ve used the word will a lot. I’d like to maybe elaborate on that and maybe tweak it for your audience a little bit, is it? Willpower is great when we try to force ourselves to do it. That’s strength as men, we like to do that right? Like, be strong. And it can be really challenging at times when our willpower will break down, extend it and say, can you find a willingness? The willingness? Because let’s go to your peloton, example, right? I imagine you’re tired when you’re on that thing.

JM Guthrie 32:02
At least it’s three young kids too. So yeah, I’m tired all the time. Yeah. And

Eddie O’Connor 32:07
so for my athletes, you know, it’s something that they know that sport is hard. And practice is hard. And games are hard. And that’s the difference between athletes and non athletes. Like they’re athletes, because they’re willing to hurt and service the game. And not athletes aren’t I remember when I was running people, like, why do you? Do they just run around in a circle? And I’m like, I don’t know. I can’t explain it, like, but they’re like, oh, but doesn’t it hurt? Aren’t you bored of it? It’s like, though, like, like those, that’s part of the experience. And where we get stuck is that as human beings, we don’t like hard things. We approach pleasure and we avoid pain. And we’re all wired that way. Again, you’re not broken, if you struggle with that. So when you can find the meaning in it, and develop the willingness, and really come to terms to feel the discomfort, the pain, the frustration, of whatever it is that you’re in and not have to escape to alcohol or to other types of things to make yourself feel better. That’s where you’re going to find the power. And it’s not a strength in that sense of forcing it. Anytime we get into a conflict and fight ourselves. It’s exhausting. It’s a matter of saying, Hey, I’m willing to embrace that pain. And I dropped that struggle. So all my energy can actually go into the behavior of doing whatever it is that I want to do. So willpower is great. Keep up the will. But if that’s starting to switch it over to willingness, and I think we’ll give you the extra mile.

JM Guthrie 33:24
When you talk, you talk to him. Oh, go ahead, Rick. Keras. Sorry. No, go ahead, man. I’m just gonna Yeah, I when you said that the one thing about the running and that you couldn’t really explain it. We hear that a lot now with people that have been able to conquer drinking or other mental wellness issues in their lives and are now on a better path. And people say to them, Well, what is it that you’re feeling? And they have no way to really describe it? We even recently heard one of the bigger motivational people David Goggins. I was on a podcast and he said, I don’t get on shows and talk about this, because I don’t have a way to explain the feeling. But then when people feel it, they come back to me and say, I get it. Dr. Eddie, do you have a way to explain this feeling? Is there? Is there a monster you know? So that’s where we’ve felt like me totally, is that feeling? Because it really cascades across all of these different aspects and different places, that these sorts of things poke their head. So just interested in sort of what you’ve described, or defined that feeling as going back to as an athlete, through obviously, all your practices now, as well as the various people that you treat? Yeah,

Eddie O’Connor 34:34
it’s, um, if I’m understanding correctly, it might. You might be surprised at this answer, but it’s, um, it’s actually I think the shift is to care less about our feelings. Because I’ll go back to a kid example like, but why do you hit your brother, right? You see your kids? Well, he made me mad. Like as a kid, we just justify, oh, I felt this way. So then I did it. Well, if you do that, when you’re an adult, you go to jail. Right? So we realize that while we’re young, we do things, and actually, as adults, we do this all the time, too. Well, why did you do that? Well, I was mad, I was anxious, I exist. And we use our feelings to justify our behaviors all the time. It’s incredibly dangerous. Like if we just acted on how we felt all the time, we would all be dead or in jail by now, like decades ago. And so, so much of culture is still prioritizing the way that we feel. And understand it’s important. Of course I do. But it cannot be our guide in life. We can use the information, if I’m unhappy in a particular situation, want to tune into the unhappiness and see what I can do about it. But I can’t let my unhappiness be the determinant of how I act and treat other people or my work ethic. So I guess to answer your question, in a different way, I would say that the feeling that it’s captured it is, is really the detachment from feelings, the idea that my character is going to be what’s most important, this principle that I want, and I’m going to let the feelings come and go as they are, I’m going to respect them, and I’m going to lean into them, but I will not let them dictate my behaviors. And I will be aware of when I am acting impulsively in just an automatic response to the way that I feel. And if you can kind of dive into that I don’t know Goggins personally, but I know his feelings didn’t dictate him, he decided he wanted to do something. And like, it didn’t matter how much pain he had, or anything else. And that’s, that’s how I guess I would describe it, you know, and you know, the feelings will still come, this isn’t gonna make you cold hearted, you might actually find it, you know, you’ll be more loving, actually, like when you can actually be intentional and treat your, your loved ones in a way that actually reflects the, the value of love, as opposed to just the emotion of it, that you’ll find that you know, great things will be enhanced, you’ll have more joy in your life, because you’re living more intentionally, you’re going to have greater intimacy, you’re going to have greater health and productivity, and then you’re going to have greater confidence. So I’m not against emotions, but I’m just kind of saying those. They’re all things that should be flowing out of what you’re doing. So in summary, I would deprioritize emotions overall, let them kind of come and go and prioritize your intentional actions based on your values. It

Joe Quattrone 37:11
sounds like everybody just needs to go to a comedy show and not take ourselves so seriously.

Eddie O’Connor 37:15
Oh, there’s a time for that, too. Yeah, like that.

Kary Youman 37:19
Definitely a time and a place. You’re sharing a lot of wisdom here, Dr. Eddie, it would be a disservice to our audience. If we didn’t just speak a little bit. We know you have a podcast, we also know that you wrote a book, you also have courses, the psychology of performance, how to be your best in life, would you be open to just talking about just some of the fundamental principles or strategies that you discuss in the book that, you know, our listeners may be able to just sort of implement right away and just kind of make some changes in their

Eddie O’Connor 37:45
life? Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, the book is an audio book. It’s also a video, downloadable through the great courses, it’s called psychology performance, how to be your best in life. And what I was really excited about when they invited me to do this was that they wanted to take sports psychology, but make it academic and practical, so that anybody could use it. And they did a wonderful job of helping me translate. So some of the reviews on the course, it’s 24 lectures, half hour, each course, every topic in sports psychology. So everything that we’ve talked about is there, the idea of willingness to do mindfulness, we talked about goal setting, we talked about some big issues in sport, like injury, I have a chapter on sport parenting, the aging athlete for us masters athletes out there. So there’s chapters on all of it. And it’s all about sort of, here’s the science, this is what it says, And then here’s how to apply it. But I’ve had musicians and just everyday people kind of say, Wow, this is great because it applies to sport. But these principles also apply to my everyday life. And that’s the approach that I’ve taken as they go into the other thing that really wants to be the success stories community that I have. So I don’t have a podcast, I don’t maybe this will be your main thought. But the success stories community is actually an online platform, where there’s individual coaching for me, but everything that I teach, you also guide into these online modules. So people can work through all of these principles to develop this, what we call psychological flexibility, this ability to learn how to be present in the moment, to learn how to detach from those thoughts and feelings as we’ve discussed, so that you can have clarity of your values and take committed action towards that. So I’ve got a lot of athletes there. I’ve got young athletes, I’ve got world champions, I’ve got master’s level athletes, but then again, I’ve got everyday people who are trying to live their best lives, be their best selves, in music, or in family. So it’s a community that it’s opened up, and you get to work with others. As part of a support system. Again, there’s all the training, there’s individual coaching with me. And I’ve loved that community because it’s been so hard to change the world one person at a time. And that’s why I’m on your podcast and stuff like that. I love to kind of put this stuff out there because some of it is different, though a lot of it is different than what you’re hearing and it gets me honestly pissed off that we’re talking about all this positive stuff and forcing people making me feel broken. There are challenges and there is information that you can learn. And if you want one of the nuggets, as you said about some of the things to share in there, two big ones , Get more sleep. And if you’re like, Oh, I get enough, I’m talking to you. Because none of us are getting enough sleep almost none of us, if you’re getting your nine hours, then okay, you can stop listening. But most people out there are, as I know, like six hours, seven hours if not less than that. And simply, that’s not enough, this science is very powerful about how much that ends up hurting our mood, or personality or productivity. And all the stuff that I be teaching here, competitive athletes come in, if they’re getting less than six hours, I do no mental training with them until I can getting them up to eight. And the reason for that is that your brain is not gonna be able to do all the things that I’m teaching you you just can’t, unless you’re getting that brain refreshed. So I could go back, it’s been a whole nother podcast on on sleep. But I promise you, and this has been everything from my clinical clients, to my professional athletes, when I’m getting them to sleep more their performance is improving. And the other one is a focus strategy. Real simple, but I say this to myself 100 times a day. What’s important now, if you want to win, why end, you want to bring your attention to what’s important. Now, so much of our mind is racing into the future and what if thoughts are stuck in the past. But if you find yourself lost in your overthinking, if you ask yourself what’s important now, you’ll bring yourself into the present moment into the thing right in front of you. And the answer to that is where you can guide your attention. And when you practice that, again, you’ll find less distress and anxiety, but greater productivity with that simple focusing strategy.

Joe Quattrone 41:38
Wow, that’s pretty important. And for the listeners out there, if you guys were doing the math in your head, like I was, you could binge watch all of this stuff on the great courses in about 12 hours. So similar to Netflix, just, you know, clear your calendars this weekend, Papa, you know, go over to great courses, sign up for the programming. 12 hours you’re in and out. And you’ve learned a ton from Dr. Eddie. So that’s awesome.

JM Guthrie 42:00
Dr. Eddie on the sleep part, because we’ve heard about sleep in a bunch of places I read about sleep. I tried to focus really hard on my schedule and sleep. It’s really hard to find a clear answer on how much sleep you need. As a human. It’s very different. People have different perspectives, but all say that sleep matters. What say yeah,

Eddie O’Connor 42:22
so let me jump in. I’m laughing, if you can see already, as soon as you said it, because again, I’ve got a lot of pet peeves. And that’s one of the questions I have is, well, how much do I need? Okay, well, let me ask you, how much water do you need to live? Right? How much food do you need to survive? Like, that’s the attitude we take with sleep, what’s the bare minimum I can do to get by? That is not a performance enhancing attitude. But I want my athletes to think about how much sleep can I get to maximize my performance? And we’re not going to get a prescription, everybody is different. I know for me, like I do much better with nine versus eight. And I knew that ever since I was a kid. And so you know, some people might be better people. I did find six. I did find seven. I’m like, I’m sure you do. But I’m telling you that the literature has shown that there’s performance enhancing effects. I’m not telling you that you have to do it again, I’m not here to force you to do anything. But if you were my client, I’d say okay, well, how much better? Do you want to be? The Olympians? They’re saying, Well, I want to be the best in the world. So they’re sleeping 10-11 hours, and they’re, you know, going to bed at the same time every night in their room darkening shades, and they’re not drinking caffeine late. They’re not on their phones, like you and your right jam. Like, it’s hard. Yeah, that’s the other big barrier. People say, Oh, but it’s hard. Okay. Like, if that’s gonna be the barrier to things we’re getting nothing done. That was really hard.

JM Guthrie 43:35
It isn’t usually hard to go to sleep or so for me, I have no issue falling asleep. But then I wake up seven hours, pretty much on a DOT I wake up, and then I’d never really go back to sleep. So in my scenario, I get up and seven seems to be a good number for me. And it’s predictable and on schedule. But if I stayed in bed, or if I really wanted to get nine, would I be able to train myself using TierPoint, sort of a darker room and maybe some different practices with regards to devices? Or even what I’m eating before I go to sleep? Like, can you use full

Eddie O’Connor 44:09
assessment? Yeah, that’s your full assessment and see, but for most of my athletes, when they say this is just the way it is, they do look at a whole bunch of things. For example, like I can’t tell you how many told me about all of a sudden we’re going through, they’re not sleeping when they find out that they got a dog, and the dog is waking them up every morning. And they’re like, Oh, well, but that’s not an option. I’m not letting the dog have to sleep with me. And I’m like, Well, look, you got to make a choice. For some people. I know. It’s a Mad my

JM Guthrie 44:32
dogs in the crate, by the way. So that’s not a problem for me. She’s creepy.

Eddie O’Connor 44:36
So for some people, it’s a thermostat, because we know that it’s cooler. So some people kind of have this with a couple of athletes, where the temperature in their house starts to go up in the morning, because they’re starting to warm it for kids going into school, but if that temperature rises, it’s waking them up. And so, you know, there could be any number of things that it is and it could be a lot of respect to that you do well with seven hours and look, you don’t want to set a world record and so so Seven hours works. Because if you are going to sleep two more hours, well, that’s going to take two more hours out of something else. So you get to make the choice JM about, well, is the benefit worth it?

JM Guthrie 45:09
Yeah, you tell somebody to get up though. So like it is just a more general example, somebody tells you seven hours they wait the first time they wake up, do you tell them to go off of the natural week? Or, you know, do you? Do you encourage them to try to force that additional time? If you’ve decided that more time is better? Just curious.

Eddie O’Connor 45:30
Yeah, again, I would need more information to give an honest opinion. Because again, I would say well, in service of what, like if you’re, if you’re getting up after seven, and you’re sluggish all day, and you’re tired, then by all means we’d be finding ways to show Yes, asleep. But if you’re getting up after seven, you’re like, I’m fully refreshed and have a great day at work, then I’d be like, well, then maybe we should be working on something else before we think that that’s where you’re going to get the maximum benefit of of our work together. Yeah, it’s a good answer.

JM Guthrie 45:56
It makes sense. So

Joe Quattrone 45:57
I’ve got an interesting twist on that. You know, between me and JM, and Carrie, I think we have a total of eight kids under the age of 10. In this call, I’ve got four of them on my own. So I think I’m a lost cause when it comes to sleeping eight hours. I don’t know if that’s gonna happen anytime soon. But one thing that I think we can map it back to our audience about in again, no judgment here, but how much alcohol does even in light amounts? How much can that wreck your sleep?

Eddie O’Connor 46:26
Yeah, in short, very much. And even if it you know, and it may knock you out, and people will say, Oh, I drink to help me sleep. And I’m like, well, being unconscious is not the same as sleeping. And to get into the science of it more is what is preventing you from getting into the stage for deep sleep. And that’s where a lot of the restoration occurs. So you might feel like you’re knocked out. But for everybody that’s ever drank, and you slept a whole bunch, you do not wake up refreshed. And that’s because you stay in the really late stages of sleep. And it’s just a chemical thing. I mean, it’s not a moral judgment, it’s just there’s no way to beat it. Like, that’s just what happens when you have alcohol in your system. It’s just a fact. Well, that

Kary Youman 47:05
was our viral clip right there. Dr. Edie? We want to be mindful of your time. But before we let you go, you know, not all of our listeners are athletic or involved in sports. How would you say, you know, some of the principles of sports psychology could be relevant to someone who’s just kind of an everyday person, they don’t really work out? Like, is there any way that someone can take this and apply it to their day to day life?

Eddie O’Connor 47:24
Yeah, 100%. Let me tell you, I take the same principles. And I’ve worked with women with fibromyalgia. I’ve used these principles, helping people overcome obesity, chronic pain. I’ve worked with a lot of health populations, and they love this. Because you’re still a performer. I don’t care whether you can walk around the block, I don’t care if you’re 300 pounds, you’re performing in life. And you’re going to come up with the same types of issues that I’m talking about here with my athletes, I performance anxiety, because you’re going to care about the outcome, you’re going to care about the meeting, you’re going to your church activity, or you want that great relationship with your family. And you’re going to have fear and doubt because you’re a human being. So everything that I’ve said to you today, I don’t care if you’ve ever played a game of basketball in your life, this all applies to you. And all those principles about having a purpose, you have a purpose. And it may not be athletic, could be musical, it could be spiritual, but you have something that you want to get done. And whatever it is that you want to get done. I know you’ve got challenges, I know it’s hard. Excellence in any area is difficult. So everything that I’ve said, wherever you want to apply it, I promise you, the context will be different, but the principles are the same.

Joe Quattrone 48:43
You hear that Fuzzy Nation you’re performing at life. So keep that in mind. And think about Dr. Eddie.

Kary Youman 48:50
That’s awesome. Um, Dr. Edit before we let you go, kind of a weird question. We’ll just kind of throw it out there. But you know, you’ve been on a lot of podcasts, you’ve written some books, you work with a lot of very athletic people. Is there a question that you know, you wish more people would ask that can help with their overall performance? Is there something that you just wish more people would ask you that you’d like to share before we close things up?

Eddie O’Connor 49:12
Huh? Think about that for a second, something I wish they would ask. Well, you might have guessed I don’t really give them the chance if they don’t ask me anyway. But I will really double down on maybe I’ll twist the question to say what do I want you most to remember from this podcast? Yeah. And it would be these two principles, the one that has to hold your emotions more lightly. We’re wired to really care about them and respond. But if you can just kind of de-emphasize them and hold your character and your principles up higher and how you feel less with that willingness idea. That’s going to give you a lot of progress. And the other one is, as you started us off about, don’t get caught up in all this positive thinking stuff. You know, it really creates Some room similar to the willingness but but hold on to the thoughts and feelings that you have not as a description of your life. But as psychological experiences. They’re so personal. And I want to respect that they’re so real. You have people say perception is reality, hate that perception is not reality. Reality is reality. So there’s another cliche I wanted, that’s actually the book. I’m gonna write about sports cliches and how to fix them.

JM Guthrie 50:27
Perception is not reality.

Eddie O’Connor 50:30
It is not it. But when we can see that we become really constricted, because then what I think when that when I think that persons acting that way for that reason, now I’ve told myself a story. And I’m going to act as if that were true, and it could ruin my life as a result of it. So start to be able to observe what you’re thinking and feeling and see them as experiences. Remember that you have the negativity bias, that idea that our mind is going to go out and try to warn us of danger. We’ve got all these things that kind of work against our performance. So we want to take a little bit more cautiously and step outside and practice observing what I’m thinking and feeling. And when it’s not working. Just let it be there. And act in a way that does move us towards what we want to do.

Kary Youman 51:11
I needed to hear that. Yes. Awesome. Thank you, Dr. Eddie, for that. So um, for our listeners, who are, you know, just interested in exploring more about your work, peak performance sports psychology? Where’s the best place for them to reach you and connect with your content? Oh,

Eddie O’Connor 51:26
yeah. Thanks for that. So really, head over to my website, Dr. Eddie O’Connor DOT com. And I’ve got a couple of links for you there. If you want to get some more quick videos, I got a mental toughness in 60 seconds, video series on YouTube. So you can get the link there some nice quick tips, I got them broken up according to subject areas. I really want to push the success stories community. So again, don’t want you to think that only athletes are in there. I’ve got, you know, the everyday people. I’ve got athletes in there too. But it’s the community that if you do the course, and you want to get all those principles, it’s in this success stories community where I can support you to actually implement them. So as much as I’d love for you to binge, the 12 hours of information, one of the one of the metaphors or or sayings that I have in the membership is knowledge without action is worthless. So I don’t care if you’ve got it all up here. If you don’t do anything with it, it’s not worth a damn. How do you start to execute these strategies? And so I would love to walk alongside you in the success stories community, just a link to the community there and be able to walk with you and say, Okay, what’s his one or two principles and start having you live that life that you want? You can get it and I want to be there for you.

Joe Quattrone 52:30
That’s fantastic.

Kary Youman 52:33
Dr. Eddie has truly been a pleasure having you glad we were finally able to make this happen. Fuzzy Nation. I’m not sure if that’s what we’re calling our fans, but make sure you go ahead and follow. Follow Dr. Eddie go to social links walls, give

JM Guthrie 52:44
him a follow up.

Joe Quattrone 52:45
We’re talking about sports so everything is a nation in sports.